Aktiv für Frauenrechte in Kenia

00:00:07: Peace Brigades International presents Making Space for Dialogue.

00:00:12: Human Rights Defenders Report Trigger Warning.

00:00:19: This podcast contains descriptions of sexual assault and abuse.

00:00:25: Hi, this is Stephanie speaking!

00:00:26: And you're listening to a podcast produced by PBI on the issues of vulnerability intersectionality in December, and I was having a conversation with Katherine Wangui, as well as Florence McGrally from PBI Kenya both being women human rights defenders advocating for not just the right of women but also girls in their respective communities.

00:00:52: And we were having a conversation about their work and

00:00:55: how

00:00:55: COVID-R has impacted what they are doing on the ground –but it means to be feminist or struggling with gender equal society!

00:01:04: So I hope you

00:01:05: get enjoy this podcast.

00:01:06: have fun listening.

00:01:10: Thank you for joining me again.

00:01:11: I hope you guys are doing all right today.

00:01:14: How's it going in Nairobi?

00:01:16: Yeah, thank you the opportunity.

00:01:19: yeah We have fine and Nairobi is fine.

00:01:23: our family is okay.

00:01:25: The weather is fine And things have gone back to.

00:01:29: at least we can say we have a new normal.

00:01:32: Things are going back slowly too what we used to have though not exactly but we're in a better place with regards to COVID and the restrictions that we had.

00:01:44: And the vaccine is here, so... We feel safer!

00:01:48: So Kate how are you doing today?

00:01:50: Today's my birthday, I'm so happy!

00:01:53: Happy Birthday to you, what an honour that your taking time speaking of us on your birthday.

00:02:00: That's special honour.

00:02:01: now thank-you very much.

00:02:03: Thank-you and also we all will doing well, we are very okay and happy to see that at least some women now a bit happy.

00:02:12: They're not out of danger due to COVID because before they were in dangers.

00:02:18: but for now even if it is not one hundred percent.

00:02:24: Yeah, I'm very curious to hear more about COVID has impacted your work but maybe too start a bit more general.

00:02:32: for those of us especially who are not that familiar with the kind of work you're doing.

00:02:42: We work with women human rights defenders, but they're within the informal settlements.

00:02:48: And for those who are not familiar with this situation in the informal settlement it's characterized really a lot of... It is actually overpopulated and has poor sanitation.

00:03:03: They have very small semi-permanent houses.

00:03:07: There are areas that have a lot crimes happening And this is where our women, human rights defenders work.

00:03:15: We have fifteen of them supported by PBI so their focus is mainly on sexual and gender-based violence because they defend and promote the women's rights and by prevention and response to sectioned gender based violence.

00:03:31: So when COVID came The issue became even more complex because of the measures that were put in place by the government.

00:03:41: Particularly, specifically it's the Ministry of Health to cap this spread of pandemic and so there was restriction movement.

00:03:52: So they put a lockdown And also restricted their hours.

00:03:59: There is also closure.

00:04:03: that is why the girls became even more vulnerable.

00:04:07: And then there was massive loss of jobs, and as you know women have a very big burden here in Africa over care work.

00:04:18: so people who are sick those who were depressed led to women having double burden on work.

00:04:25: Even when men lost income because workplaces were closed, companies are downsized and people were sent home.

00:04:37: So people could not even earn for the families.

00:04:41: so women had a double burden of ensuring that they survive all for their family.

00:04:47: There was lot cases especially sexual violence because now... And physical violence as well the women and girls together with their violators, they could not escape because of a limited movement.

00:05:08: The closure or lack of avenues for letting out stress led to all this.

00:05:14: And then even police officers were more focused on ensuring that people adhere through lockdowns as opposed to attending these cases of sexual violence.

00:05:31: So the situation was even made worse by COVID-in, which in turn meant that our women human rights defenders had more work to do with prevention and response.

00:05:48: I'm wondering maybe you can walk us through what it's like.

00:05:52: I mean, if you can...I know this is kind of like a challenging task but to make it bit more understandable what its'like as woman in Nairobi.

00:06:01: If i'm a survivor of sexual based violence?

00:06:05: Is that something that I could speak about with my community for women and girls in Nairobi?

00:06:14: Okay!

00:06:14: I would say issues of sexuality here are treated with lot privacy.

00:06:22: The way we've been socialized is that matter-sex belong to the private sphere and not public.

00:06:30: And, uh... We had even challenges where you want to discuss in schools things do with family planning or how unwanted pregnancies and reproductive health but still find there's a lot of resistance.

00:06:48: this because it was being socialize and our cultures here, they treat those matters as not things that you speak about openly.

00:06:59: But now what we do?

00:07:01: We try to get strategies where we can have people speaking easily about the unspoken And this is why for example sometimes we use even role plays in people discuss What's in their role play But at the end of day, they discover that discussing themselves without even knowing.

00:07:25: So it's easier when you're discussing from someone else's point as opposed to say now I... They will discuss that mural or piece of drama but then send them into a reflection mode and then they'll discover oh we are also doing this same thing.

00:07:45: so than learn form whatever pieces there, whether the mural or the drama.

00:07:53: So we find a way of going into these discussions in a way that is acceptable within their community so they don't feel like not respecting them.

00:08:08: So Kate, now I'm wondering after what Florence has just shared with us.

00:08:12: How is it for you as a female woman to be doing this kind of work in the community where these issues are stigmatized and nothing that people speak about?

00:08:23: For me at times its very difficult especially on psychological part because I listen to a lot of cases, some are very traumatizing but we really thank PBI a lot.

00:08:38: Because they keep on taking us to psychosocial cause at the end of day have been brought up here.

00:08:45: so most people really trust in me and share lots of cases through the networks of the PBI.

00:08:54: At that time.

00:08:55: we help them by looking for pro bono lawyers doing a follow-up in the courts, and also at times when you feel that they are not able to speak.

00:09:08: Sometimes we give them a pen or paper so that can talk through writing And really show it working because In their informal settlement It's a cosmopolitan whereby We have different tribes people with different ethnic communities, and most of the culture.

00:09:34: like how Florence have said any sexual harassment is like a taboo to them.

00:09:40: So then talking about it they feel that you are shaming their family so it really end up traumatizing them, so we always find a way how Florence have shared it and also share with them our stories.

00:09:58: So that they can feel as if you are not the only one who is going through whatever language because people take you very straight or don't have any challenge but struggle and where we have come from, they also feel that free to share with

00:10:21: us.

00:10:45: So we were actually looking into that problem as women, human rights defenders.

00:10:51: And with thought.

00:10:52: it's time to have the perpetrators of rape and defilement being held accountable for their violations?

00:11:03: Actually you're doing a campaign that seeks to increase the conviction rates Because we've realized there are a lot of incidents, but when you look at the access to justice for survivors it's not where they should be.

00:11:25: And this has ended up normalizing these violence When people go silent and perpetrators aren't accountable when survivors get blamed for their misfortune then We begin to normalize these rights.

00:11:42: So Kate, if I can ask you that is not too personal of a question because your also spoke about how this affecting at times mentally.

00:11:51: So i'm wondering what gives the strength to keep going and to keep fighting?

00:11:56: And to keep engaging?

00:11:59: What are the moments maybe experience in work That give you energy doing the work that you are doing despite all the challenges?

00:12:12: Okay, one is the people I walk around with because whenever i have a case.

00:12:19: I always share out and get a lot of support.

00:12:23: And another thing is when I start a case at end of day That person has got their justice.

00:12:38: Now that through the sensitization we have done, at least I can see some... even if it is not a hundred percent but i can see few girls and women speaking out.

00:12:51: And talking about how they feel or what are going on.

00:12:58: for me It really motivates me A lot At end of day when I see in society There are also some women who were really also vying for the seats of the political party.

00:13:13: I feel at least we're doing something, even if you cannot get it a hundred percent—even if its like two per cent or three per cent —I felt really motivated a lot and before that most organizations would work only with women to empower them.

00:13:35: but I'm very happy to see that as a toolkit organizers, we call ourselves Women Human Rights Defenders.

00:13:43: But in fifteen of us have four men whom they really support us alot and when you go them like the meetings under people on community say okay i didn't think there are some man who can support issues women.

00:14:05: So it also really motivates me a lot because, uh... It's not an issue of maybe women fighting for themselves but when I see men who are supporting women i feel motivated.

00:14:21: Yeah that is very true and at least how sometimes I understand the struggle in this course.

00:14:28: you do need man in order to get this done, right?

00:14:31: I mean you need to cooperate.

00:14:32: You need to be collaborative and that was actually one of the things That iIwas wondering about.

00:14:37: And maybe Florence adding to what Kei just said...you can also elaborate a bit on how do you see men In this struggle?

00:14:44: Do you feel supported?

00:14:47: The man who are in our network?

00:14:50: They're very supportive they're just like us.

00:14:54: So in fact, they help us get more buy-in from men and boys.

00:15:01: Because even when you go to the community and they see we have a man who is standing up for the rights of women then look at them as models And on end of day if these ones can do it than even ask We Can Do It!

00:15:15: Even changing their narrative that You're always looking At Men As The Problem.

00:15:22: If we start looking at them as they have a solution also to these things, then they feel included in the process.

00:15:29: So when every time you're there problem... You are on their problems and stay there.

00:15:37: but if your seen us is having solutions than it will work hard to bring that solution into this problem.

00:15:47: I read that you actually identified very strongly with being a feminist.

00:15:53: And now, it's one of these terms where we all have an idea what feminism is and what this person might do.

00:16:03: but what does it mean to you?

00:16:05: Because maybe my understanding from what feminists may be different people in other contexts feel like.

00:16:15: So what is being a feminist?

00:16:17: What does that mean to you personally?

00:16:21: The reason as to why I came into be a feminist, because i'm so passionate about women and girls Because Hote really pushed me to become human right defender.

00:16:44: My close family were victims of sexual gender-based violence, and by then I was very young.

00:16:59: So what I do, I always fight for girls so that they cannot go through what my relatives went through and never got justice.

00:17:10: That's why i am so passionate about... My feminism is all about women and girls as much as yes I really fight for men or other gender but i'm very very passionate Because I feel that most of them, they lack information.

00:17:32: They end up getting early into marriages because the lack in formation and also their societal thing but still go through.

00:17:45: some maybe go to FGM, female genital mutilation And we are not able speak out.

00:17:55: Most Some of them also got married very early due to maybe pregnancy, they end up dropping out off school.

00:18:06: So that's why I feel...I should not keep quiet!

00:18:11: I shouldn't be silent.

00:18:12: so at least help other girls and not get where me was.

00:18:18: Yeah i mean a hundred percent agree.

00:18:21: thank you for sharing yourself as a survivor in that regard and talking with us about this today.

00:18:29: I mean, i'm very grateful for that And from what I read or how I understand you when you say schools drop out of school because they get pregnant Because they don't have information Then men continue and then automatically other ones making the money For instance while women are getting into a position to be dependent on me how I'm thinking this now.

00:18:55: This has also a lot to do with the question of equality.

00:18:59: and Florence, that actually brings me to you because what I saw when I read about you is that you have very strong vision for gender-equal society?

00:19:12: And I think that automatically speaks out on issues Kate's been raising.

00:19:18: but can you maybe explain?

00:19:22: For me, gender equal society is a society where both men and women equally enjoy rights in the opportunities to realize their real full potential.

00:19:37: And you find that here within the African context we are born equal.

00:19:46: everyone is born equal man and woman.

00:19:49: but once your bone, now the community or the socialization agents around you start showing you their difference and making an equal because it is during birth that um...the birth of a boy will be celebrated highly compared to the birth of girl.

00:20:10: And then uh..the kind work given when young kid like four years, five years.

00:20:19: The girl will be told to clean the dishes and do this household work that's already in the mind of a girl confines her into their private space.

00:20:32: but they boy would send out going harder after the kettle go with your father.

00:20:39: wherever you're grandfather he'll be exposed outside world As he is growing, already in his mind.

00:20:48: He belongs to the outside and a girl belongs through their house.

00:20:53: And even when you become a grown up and your looking for work there are those professions that I considered men For man.

00:21:03: on those that are considered four women and you find out four women.

00:21:08: they're associated with care work like nurses, if you go to nursery schools and daycares it's women.

00:21:17: But most engineers... Most doctors are men.

00:21:22: so that kind of a thing.

00:21:24: And even where we find the men and women in this same profession You get the earn unequally.

00:21:33: So yeah We campaigned for equal pay for equal work done, because sometimes men and women do the same kind of work but the man get paid higher.

00:21:47: And even our culture like within the institution of marriage people don't have equal say or equal rights as partners with in a marriage.

00:22:00: so you find here we have things that woman is to be seen and not to be hard.

00:22:09: So this has made women lose their decision-making powers, so they don't feel confident participating in leadership positions.

00:22:20: They don't even try sometimes And some men have gone even beyond like making decisions on behalf of the women's bodies, and a husband will decide for you what kind of family planning method how many children you would get instead of viewing themselves as equal partners.

00:22:46: And sitting down to decide What do want from yourself?

00:22:50: So it is like women don't mind their own.

00:22:54: And in this journey of seeking gender equality, it's not like we are hating men or against them.

00:23:05: But the fact that they're already ahead us for us to be on same line then have give a little bit more women and girls who had been left slightly behind so unfortunate.

00:23:25: A number, a biggest percentage of women sometimes will be violated and they don't even know that it's a violation.

00:23:35: So this gender inequality is tied to patriarchy.

00:23:42: we are highly patriarchal here so its system based on social norms And social norms are not things that you can change overnight.

00:23:56: So we believe in continuous community engagement and education, people will change because they know the value of the change that they want to see as opposed when things are forced on them.

00:24:11: That is why like everyone should be part of their process so that it changed from an informed position but moved, but we still have a way to go because for example women are the majority of voters.

00:24:31: But a woman will buy from her position and these same women would not vote for their fellow man.

00:24:38: so you'll go for a meeting and be asked who wants to be chair.

00:24:43: no one will raise hand up.

00:24:46: I think it's unconscious because of the way we've been brought up, the agents over socialization.

00:24:58: They made us feel okay and comfortable.

00:25:03: where are so much that even like if you speak out your mind It is translated to disrespect especially now in a couple if i tell my husband or I ask him use condom.

00:25:23: It's taken negatively, you see?

00:25:25: And even when other women will hear that is what i said to my husband there are some who would not be for me.

00:25:34: they'll be on my husbands side.

00:25:37: and even when your going get married You see those traditional in the elderly woman.

00:25:44: They tell you now from today you're getting married go and love your husband, respect to her husband cook

00:25:52: for you

00:25:52: husband.

00:25:54: Yeah

00:25:54: don't question your husband.

00:25:56: You know all those things.

00:25:58: they say your husband is your husband but not tell about yourself.

00:26:03: They will never tell your husband.

00:26:05: And now that your husband should love or respect you as well No!

00:26:09: They only look at it from one side.

00:26:12: So even the women continue also through widen this gap.

00:26:17: I think even without their knowledge, it's unconscious.

00:26:20: some do it consciously of course because of the system that they've been brought up in.

00:26:25: but uh its time.

00:26:27: we continue to engage them so that slowly they'll realize what is beneficial for them to do in order to achieve change.

00:26:37: and I don't know what that theory is called where change spreads and spreads, so at the end of day we achieve a bigger change even if it started from one person.

00:26:51: So when you have forums about such things these women realize oh!

00:26:57: They've also been contributing to this gap.

00:27:00: they start talking with other people within their networks because women are very social beings and we have a lot of women meetings.

00:27:10: We call them chamas here, I don't know if you have them but they're those social groups for women even gossip groups that It's where women just meet, you pour out.

00:27:27: You share and they search for rams so that are very informal.

00:27:31: They're very important forums like conceiving a change in someone.

00:27:37: Yes

00:27:37: And then gossip kind of also meaning simply exchange and information exchange right?

00:27:43: Yeah even that gossip is in quotes because it's what people interpret to be.

00:27:49: but the fact we talk about Men are meant not to cry, not share a lot of things but as women we pour out our hearts.

00:28:02: We cry and display emotions.

00:28:05: if I feel something is very heavy i'll just scream drop myself down!

00:28:12: I cry and Kate will pick me tell her sorry hug me you know?

00:28:17: But now my husband will either go and drink Yes, or even if he has to cry maybe he will lock himself inside the toilet and cry because you're not supposed to see them crying.

00:28:31: It's a sign of weakness!

00:28:33: Yeah now I also feel sorry for the men who are not allowed live their emotions And i think we have that very traditionally imagination about what man is supposed do here as well, which is so limiting and unhealthy.

00:28:51: And all these things... But now that you speak about the community coming together I was wondering if we take this more on a global level?

00:29:00: How has cooperation been with you and maybe global partners in?

00:29:05: If you imagine now, like people that might have been working together with in the past who had similar issues maybe or a similar struggle.

00:29:14: Would you have a message for them coming out of all these stories we spoke about?

00:29:19: Coming from this experience and feelings of shame sometimes but then also pride and strength Like if can send-out – This is your forum to send out a message to fellow human rights defenders.

00:29:33: What would that message be?

00:29:34: Like what is the call.

00:29:36: Okay, what I'm saying is that a change.

00:29:39: it's not an event It's a process and water would encourage other women human defenders in The world Is data.

00:29:48: we should not get tired We should Not Get Intimidated We Should Not Let It Go.

00:29:56: We Should Always Fight for their rights of Women And also, we should always continue supporting the women and the girls so that we can see a brighter future for them.

00:30:12: So that we could see change in our society –in our communities through women because women really do Mavela's job with deliverables as well as leadership at various institutions.

00:30:31: Yeah, thank you Kate Florence do.

00:30:32: You also have a message to your fellow women human rights defenders feminists out there.

00:30:38: What is the most important for you as a message?

00:30:41: To them

00:30:43: The Most Important For Me Is that Yes We Share Situations and Experiences in As Much as we are In Different Contexts And Countries.

00:30:57: Sharing of this Knowledge because everyone does it differently, increases our way of doing it.

00:31:08: Our effectiveness and efficiency in this work and networking is a great idea.

00:31:16: I would request that if we can continue strengthening our networks and partnerships so even sharing opportunities This will increase our connectedness, like we'll connect well with women human rights defenders in other even continents.

00:31:38: And it would be an advantage to us because it will raise our capacities and even our profiles where are?

00:31:47: so I would stress so much on networking and partnerships

00:31:53: And in that sense, I'm also super happy we connected today.

00:31:56: We shared our stories and got to learn so much about your work people here in Germany or whoever listens to this now, in Kenya and Africa.

00:32:12: In Europe, in Germany wherever the listeners sit.

00:32:16: so thank you so much.

00:32:17: I don't know do you guys is there anything else that you want to speak about?

00:32:21: are any last words that you would like to add before i'm wrapping this up?

00:32:27: Mine is just to remind us all about the sixteen days of active regime against gender-based violence.

00:32:34: So, let's put our efforts together in every small way we can do it to see that violence against women is a thing of the past.

00:32:47: Thank you.

00:32:52: Do you have anything else?

00:32:58: I think Florence really read my mind because I was also about to talk about the sixteenth days of activism, and we should embrace it.

00:33:07: And make sure that at least you have an impact on end-of-the-sixteen days... ...and support women as well making them know this is not about other people but it's about women.

00:33:20: It's all about themselves.

00:33:23: Also they speak out their share.

00:33:29: They do NOT wait until they are being killed in the house, walking out.

00:33:35: it's not a crime.

00:33:37: Saying no is not a claim and also crying its source of therapeutic thing.

00:33:46: yeah thank you.

00:33:48: Thank You so much to you guys again for meeting me here today For giving us as a collective opportunity To have this conversation taking that time effort at Santasana.

00:33:59: I was very happy speaking with you.

00:34:02: Thank

00:34:11: You!